When Danielle LaRock and Cassie Yahnian of National Park After Dark first started their podcast, “we thought it was going to be a true crime podcast,” says Cassie. But it became something more. Their tagline reads, “a podcast for the morbidly curious outdoor enthusiast.” While it focuses on the outdoors, explains Cassie, under that umbrella “can be anything from dark history to animal attacks to True Crime to survival stories–it’s just intriguing stories that take place in the outdoors.”

SMI began connecting advertisers with the podcast in 2021, the same year it launched. Since then, the show’s audience has nearly doubled. Skylight Frames was our first client to advertise on National Park After Dark, running ads on the show alongside advertisers like Rocket Money, McDonald’s, and Shopify. Our current client sponsors include the plant protein bar IQBar, and the organic bedding brand Coyuchi. 

SMI’s Podcast Strategist Lisa Risk says National Park After Dark is top of mind when we are looking for ways to reach female listeners. “We find that when we have a show that is working for one client, it tends to perform well for others too as it’s a responsive audience and the audience trusts the hosts,” she says. Lisa often recommends National Park After Dark to advertisers looking for a cost-effective way to test into True Crime.

I met with National Park After Dark hosts Danielle and Cassie to talk about the work that goes into having a number one podcast, what they look for in their show’s sponsors, and what makes their podcast great.

SMI: You have the #1 True Crime + Nature podcast. How long have you held that reigning title?

Danielle: I think that reigning title fluctuates. I don’t know if we have ever been truly number one in True Crime because that’s such a huge category. But in our niche of outdoor True Crime, I would say yes. It’s interesting because our show was one of the first–if not the first–to overlap those two areas of interest: the Outdoor world and the True Crime world. We have found success in the podcasting world because we tapped into that so early. And it wasn’t even really done intentionally. We were just talking about things that we found interesting. That existed in our friendship before we formulated a show and structured those conversations into a show. So that probably lends itself to being among the top-rated shows. It’s just a natural interest; it’s not forced. It’s something we would be discussing anyways. 

SMI: You two have so much chemistry, and your friendship is probably one thing that draws listeners too, because your podcast gives listeners the feeling that they’re just hanging out with friends. How did you two meet, and what were some of those shared interests that made you create this podcast?

Cassie: We originally met because we were vet techs together. We are both from Southern New Hampshire originally, and we worked together there. We quickly found that we were each other’s outdoorsy friends in our vet clinic community. You had the people you went out and got drinks with, you had people you talked about movies with. But Danielle and I discovered that we both really loved the outdoors and hiking, and we kind of bonded over that. When we would be going to these places, we would talk about stories that happened there. Sometimes we would be on a couple-hour car ride to the White Mountains, because that’s where we grew up and recreate. And we would be searching for stories set at the location we were in, and discussing it the whole time.

Danielle: Another thing about our friendship and how it translates the show is we’re not experts. A lot of outdoor podcasts are hosted by these incredible, amazing athletes that are the top of their game. They’re scaling K2, they’re free soloing El Cap. And while we admire those people and we admire those feats, that is not us. We enjoy being outside and we are interested in what happens in these spaces, but when we’re talking to each other, and the way that we’ve garnered an audience is–yes, we’re friends–but a lot of the people we’re talking to are at our same level, so it feels more relatable. They can see themselves in us and our conversations–we’re not professional athletes in any way. 

SMI: Is there a very wide-ranging demo for your podcast, or do you think it’s mostly women? Who do you think is out there listening? 

Cassie: It’s definitely mostly women. Not all–but I would say the majority is women. Our demographic ranges from 18 to 65. Some people listen with their families; some people listen while they’re trail running and while they’re taking a walk through the city with their dog. The highest number of listeners is probably between 25 and 45, but it goes younger or older and is spread across the country. We see people from all over the United States are listening. 

Danielle: And we can see those numbers. We have backend statistics analytics. But when people write in and tell us, it goes across the board. Some people are like, “I’m indoorsy. I don’t like being outside, but I love exploring the outdoors through listening to the show.” So that’s really cool. And like Cassie said, some people are exploring national parks with their young children and toddlers. And there are other people who are single female solo adventurers who are going out in their van for the first time and exploring. It just runs the gamut. It’s cool to see because it feels like our show is niche, but it’s really not, because it can be enjoyed by so many different types of people. 

SMI: Where do you get ideas for your podcast, and how much time do you spend researching and putting your podcast together every week?

Danielle: It depends on the episode as far as how much time it takes. There are some cases that are just so involved that they either need to be multiple-parters, or it’s two hours worth of information. So we would say, probably a good thirty or so hours per episode. That involves a lot of things. Depending on the content, there’s almost always a book that has to do with the material. We would feel like we’re doing a disservice to the episode if we didn’t read that material, so we’re always going to read a book if one exists. Documentaries. Going through any sort of Records, whether they be archival newspaper clippings or court documents and records, affidavits–if those exist. A huge resource we lean on is the National Park Service website. Not only do they have information about the park, trail closures, and whatever is going on at present in each of the parks–they have a huge archive that goes back for hundreds of years. They’ve scanned documents and that’s a treasure trove of information. So if it exists, we need to make sure we review it. 

As far as ideas, they come in a lot of different ways. Sometimes people request particular things, and that’s easy. We’re like, “Oh, great idea! We can look into it.” But other times, through our own personal travels–whether we’re together, or independently–always making sure we’re on the lookout for any sort of signage, a memorial, a plaque, a kiosk that has any sort of information, a footnote in other books. Cassie has done quite a number of episodes that have come from finding a single footnote sentence in another entirely different episode content. There are stories everywhere.

SMI: That sounds very time intensive. What do you do for fun when you’re not preparing for the podcast? 

Cassie: What do you mean? 

[Danielle and Cassie laugh.] 

Cassie: We both read a lot. I think we’ve both been leaning into listening to books recently because we both read for the podcast pretty extensively, and listening is a little easier to combine with our everyday activities. But we both like to enjoy the outdoors on our off-time too. We try to enjoy hobbies outside of just heavily researching every day, but recently I think that’s mostly what we’ve been doing. 

Danielle: It ebbs and flows as far as what we’re able to balance. When we get overwhelmed, we always take a moment to be like, “But this is a good problem to have.” The show is doing really well and we’re grateful for it. 

I really like going to historic properties on my off-time, either museums or historic mansions–I love that. That’s what I do on my off-time: pretend I’m in a different time.

SMI: That’s very fun. Do you listen to other podcasts, and do you have any favorites? 

Danielle: I do. Cassie doesn’t listen to podcasts. 

Cassie: Yeah, I don’t. Occasionally I listen to podcasts. 

Danielle: Don’t you listen to Climbing Gold? 

Cassie: Sometimes. Or Dirtbag Diaries I like. If I see interesting interviews for people, I will tune in for stuff like that. I also like Radio Rental. 

Danielle: Radio Rental is great. I was always an avid podcast listener, even before I helped create one. But now, I know how the sausage is made. And I know a lot of the people! Two girls, One Ghost I always listen to–Sabrina and Corinne are friends. Ash and Alaina at Morbid–we’ve met a few times, we’ve texted with them, we’ve done a podcast crossover with them before. We’ve met Payne Lindsey, who’s the mastermind behind Radio Rental. It’s like our world now. 

But I would say I love Radio Rental. Morbid is great. Tooth and Claw is one of my favorites. We work with them extensively as well. I love Girls Gotta Eat, which is totally different–it’s like sex, dating, and relationships. And how we listen to audiobooks, right now I’m in my fiction era, where it’s like, “Just bring me somewhere else. I need a break.” And that’s kind of like Girls Gotta Eat. None of their content overlaps with ours literally at all, and it’s really nice to listen to. 

SMI: For any potential advertisers, how do you choose your show’s sponsors?

Cassie: We love to highlight eco-friendly and sustainable brands. That is something that we’re always on the lookout for. The majority of what we advertise has some type of sustainable component–whether it’s clothing or household products. Things we can feel good about buying are what we like to advertise.

Danielle: And anything to do with travel. Anything that has to do with luggage or camping, hiking, accessories for being outdoors. That’s obviously always going to be a hit with our audience because it’s a bullseye. 

True Crime is a great way to reach female listeners, but, cautions Lisa, “not all True Crime is created equal.” One factor our Podcast Media Buyers take into account is how the show’s podcast ads are sold. “With True Crime, baked-in ads are great because people will go back and listen to old shows,” Lisa says.

Our Media Buyers also consider a show’s size. “We are always looking for smaller podcasts,” says Lisa. “A robust, well-rounded podcast campaign has shows of all sizes. We can test into shows that are on a growth trajectory, and the client really benefits from that.”